[Membroj] more from Mendele: Zamenhof & Yiddish
Ralph Dumain
rdumain at autodidactproject.org
Fri Sep 4 19:40:39 EDT 2009
More from Mendele: Forum for Yiddish Literature and Yiddish Language, vol. 6:
vol. 6.080:
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 22:22:12 EDT
From: ellen at central.cis.upenn.edu
Subject: zamenhof's 'dream' language
the following was posted on the linguist list. i repeat it here for
general interest and also ask if anyone has ever heard of this anecdote
and, if so, knows what language zamenhof was dreaming in. yiddish,
perchance?
also, i've always heard that zamenhof was a native yiddish speaker. does
anyone have a reference for this? thanks.
Ellen Prince
Date: 11 Oct 1996 10:48:56 EDT
From: 100101.2276 at CompuServe.COM (Dan Maxwell)
Subject: language in dreams
I thought that the recent postings on the topic of language in dreams
had pretty much covered the range of phenomena in existence on this
topic, but it appears that I was wrong. I was recently browsing
through a biography of Zamenhof, the creator of Esperanto, called
"L'homme qui a de'fie' Babel"(the man who defied Babel) by Rene'
Centassi and Henri Masson, when i came across an account of a dream
which Zamenhof had, apparently at the age of about 16. That would
have been more than 10 years before 1887, usually considered the
birthyear of the language, when his first grammar of Esperanto was
published. He at that time was concerned with the question of whether
his language should have a definite article, having noticed that his
own Polish, and also Russian (presumably the prestige language of that
time and place, since Zamenhof lived in Bialystok, then part of the
Russian Empire), did not. In the dream he was pondering this question
near a forest with his uncle Jozef and his Greek teacher, whose name
was Billevitch. Zamenhof suggested that they might find someone in
the forest who could help them. Billevitch, on the contrary, warned
against going into the forest on the grounds that there were three
girls in red who wanted to harm them. Zamenhof then looked toward the
forest, saw the girls in question, and cried out, "there are
- -the-(author's emphasis) three girls in red." Zamenhof then woke up
in a sweat, but decided that his problem had been solved. The
definite article had in his view proved its usefulness. And, as every
Esperantist knows, there is a definite article, namely the invariable
"la".
I can't remember having or hearing about a dream with this degree of
linguistic specificity. It is also not clear what language the dream
occurred in. Probably not Polish or Russian, since these lack the
article which played such a prominent role. Zamenhof knew several
other languages, most of them with definite articles, so these appear
to be better candidates. In any case, postings from others suggest
that people can dream in languages that they don't know very well.
The last possibility is that the language was some embryonic form of
Esperanto itself, since Zamenhof was so intensely concerned with this
topic.
Dan Maxwell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents of Vol. 6.081
October 16, 1996
1) L. L. Zamenhof and Yiddish (Howard I. Aronson)
2) L. L. Zamenhof and Yiddish (Bob Rothstein)
3) L. L. Zamenhof and Yiddish (Irving D. Goldfein)
4) Yiddish vegetarian writers (Pawel Brunon Dorman)
1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:54:27 -0600
From: hia5 at midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: L. L. Zamenhof and Yiddish
Ellen Prince (Mendele Vol 6.080) asked about whether L. L. Zamenhof, the
inventor of Esperanto, knew Yiddish. Although he apparently regarded
Russian as his first (and favorite) non-invented language, he clearly
was a speaker of Yiddish and, in fact, wrote a fascinating grammar of
Yiddish in Russian. The grammar was not published until 1982 with the
original Russian and a complete Esperanto translation. In it Zamenhof
argued for Latinization of the Yiddish writing system. He proposes a
literary pronunciation that is almost exactly the same as the YIVO norm.
A propos of another thread he states that one should spell 'auf' as
'af.' His proposed spelling norms totally reject the daytshmerish
orthography in favor of one reflecting actual Yiddish pronunciation. He
calls for a purging of daytshmerisms from the language. All in all, a
very "modern" approach for 1879-1882, the approximate time of
composition.
I don't know about the 'the,' but it is widely accepted that only one
purely Yiddish morpheme made it into Esperanto. This is the suffix (now,
basically, substantive) -edz-o 'husband,' which is viewed as a back
formation of -edz-in-o 'wife,' and which appears to derive from the
suffix -etsn in the word rebetsn.
By the way, Zamenhof's writings on Yiddish are collected in: Adolf
Holzhaus. "L. Zamenhof, Provo de gramatiko de novjuda lingvo- kaj
-Alvoko al la juda intelektularo. Helsinki, 1982.
Howard I. Aronson
2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:49:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: rar at slavic.umass.edu
Subject: Zamenhof
Re Ellen Prince's question about Ludwig Zamenhof's native language:
According to Reyzen's _Leksikon_, Zamenhof's father, Marcus, and his
grandfather, Fabian, were both teachers of French and German in
Bialystok, then part of the Russian empire, where four
languages--Russian, Polish, German and Yiddish--were common. Reyzen says
nothing about his first language, but points out that Zamenhof once
thought that Yiddish, because of its widespread character, might serve
as a basis for an international language. Zamenhof spent three years
working on a Yiddish grammar, only fragments of which were ever
published (in a Yiddish periodical). In his publications on Yiddish he
suggested adopting the Latin alphabet for Yiddish.
In 1958 the editor of _Yidishe shprakh_, Yudel Mark, gently corrected a
reader who had asserted that Zamenhof's mother tongue was Russian. He
argued that Zamenhof grew up in a bilingual milieu even if he learned
Russian as a child and heard Russian at home--and from his mother at
that (YS 18:80).
In a subsequent issue of the journal (YS 19 [1959]:30) another reader
expressed his surprise that Zamenhof had written for a Yiddish
periodical and worked on the language. He related his own experience of
being visited daily by Dr. Zamenhof (who was an ophthalmologist) during
the four weeks in 1902 when he was a patient in a Jewish hospital in
Warsaw. He reported that the doctor normally used Polish while making
his rounds, but since he (the patient) spoke little Polish, Zamenhof
spoke "a 'daytshn' yidish" with him. He added that the doctor "[hot]
ober keyn mol nit oysgeredt keyn ekht yidish vort." The editor (Mark)
conceded that this may have been true, but suggested that the strongly
anti-Yiddish attitude of the time would have made it difficult for a
doctor to deal officially with his patients in ordinary Yiddish, "nit
fardaytshndik a bisl zayn shprakh." Mark added that it is conceivable
that a person could perfectly well write about linguistic matters in
Yiddish without being a fluent _speaker_ of the language.
Bob Rothstein
3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:26:34 -0700
From: goldfein at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Zamenhof
A second-hand but reliable personal reference: my father has often told
me of his friendship with Zamenhof's daughter, in Warsaw. She told him
that her father had done quite a lot of writing in Yiddish, and had in
fact worked on a Yiddish grammar which was never published. His dream,
however, could have been in Russian, German, Hebrew or English -
languages with which he also had great facility.
Irving D. Goldfein
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
vol. 6.083:
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:13:07 +0900
From: tsuguya at gol.com
Subject: Zamenhof and Yiddish
The following two bibliographies of Zamenhof in Esperanto give a short
but reliable account of his knowledge of Yiddish:
Holzhaus, A. 1969. Doktoro kaj lingvo Esperanto. Helsinki. (pp. 19-34)
Maimon, N. Z. 1978. La kashita vivo de Zamenhof. Tokyo. (pp. 71-78)
By the way, Zamenhof, under the pseydonym of Dr. X, wrote an article
entitled "Vegn a yidisher gramatik un reform in der yidisher shprakh" in
_Lebn un visnshaft_, no. 1 (1909).
On a possible Yiddish influence on Esperanto, see, for example, the
following articles:
Gold, D. L. 1980. Towards a Study of Possible Yiddish and Hebrew
Influence on Esperanto. In: Miscellanea Interlinguistica, ed. by I.
Szeldahelyi, Budapest, pp. 300-367.
Piron, C. 1984. Contribution a l'etude des apports du yidiche a
l'esperanto. Jewish Language Review 4: 15-29.
Tsuguya Sasaki
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents of Vol. 6.085
October, 1996
1) Zamenhof and Yiddish (Chana and Yosl Mlotek)
2) Zamenhof and Yiddish (Rick Turkel)
1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 12:59:46 -0500
From: chaniyos at aol.com
Subject: Vegn Dr. Zamenhof, der grinder fun Esperanto un yidish
Mit yorn tsurik (29 oktober 1972) hot Profesor Nosn Ziskind undz
ongefregt in dem rubrik "Perl fun der yidisher poezye" in Forverts tsi
Dr. Ludvig Zamenhof hot geshribn yidishe lider. Er hot dort geshribn:
Adolf Holtshauz tsitirt in zayn biografye "Doktora kai linga
esperanto" (mir tsitirn dem titl loyt dem yidishn tekst) di
vayterdike 5-shuredike strofes fun Zamenhof's nit-publikirter
'Yidisher gramatik' fun a ksav-yad vos gefint zikh in der
natsyonaler biblyotek in yerushalayim. Dort vert take ongegebn
Zamenhof vi der mekhaber fun di lider....un azoy vayter."
Er tsitirt di lider (mir brengen zey tsum sof fun briv) un fregt on vos
mir veysn vegn dem, tsi dos zaynen Zamenhofs eygene lider. Etlekhe
vokhn shpeter (in di Perl l3 detsember l972) hot a Zamenhof-forsher N.
Ts. Maymon fun san frantsisko geentfert:
Mr. A. Forsher, Oyf der frage vos prof. Nosn Ziskind hot gefregt
tsi Dr. Zamenhof hot geshribn di yidishe lider (vos er hot aykh
geshikt), tsi emetser andersh, derloyb ikh zikh - als
Zamenhof-forsher - tsu entfern.
l. Dr. Zamenhof hot geshribn a sakh lider: in der tsayt fun Khivas-tsion -
tsionistishe, in rusish, speter - espirantistishe in esperanto.
2. Vegn di rusishe lider hot Nokhem Sokolov gezogt tsu Dr. Emanuel
Olshvanger, az zey zaynen geven di shenste tsionistishe lider, vos er
hot ven geleyent in rusish. Eyn lid, ibergezetst in esperanto, vert
gebrengt in Zamenhofs biografye un dort gefinen zikh di verter "Vakh
oyf, mayn folk". Fun dem iz gedrungen az "Shtey oyf mayn folk" iz
Zamenhofs un men darf es nisht zukhn bay Mikhl Gordon un A. Goldfaden.
3. Dr. Zamenhof dertsylt in zayn kurtser oytobiografye, az shoyn als
tsen-yoriker bokher hot er gekholemt tsu vern a groyser rusisher poet.
Oyb azoy, farvos zol er nit hobn geshribn oykh lider in yidish, dos
loshn vos er hot shtark lib gehat: 'Ikh lib heys dem azoy-genantn
'zhargon' - shraybt er in onheyb fun zayn 'Yidishe gramatik' un shpeter
oyf an ander ort: 'Beys undzere inteligentn (arayngerekhnt afile di
yidishe shrayber) batsien zikh tsu yidish mit di greste farakhtung un
batrakhtn zi a bisl vild, hobn mir zikh shtendik batsoygn un batsien
zikh tsu ir oykh itst mit libshaft un mir zeen in dem azoy genantn
zhargon di zelbe shprakh vi ale andere shprakhn.
4. Di 'gramatik' vu di yidishe lider gefinen zikh, hot Dr. Zamenhof
geendikt in onhoyb fun Khivas Tsien in Varshe, l881-l882. In der tsayt
hot er zikh a sakh mesasek geven mit Khivas tsien un iz geven eyner fun
di prominente firer. Demolt hot er oykh geshribn tsienistishe artiklen
un lider in rusish. Un derfar merkt zikh oykh zeyer shtark on der
tsienistisher gayst un entuziasm in di etlekhe lider oyf yidish. Es ken
zayn az er hot nokh mer yidishe lider farfast, nor di por zenen geblibn.
5. Trots dem shvakh fun Sokolov oyf Zamenhofs tsienistishe lider in
rusish, hot Zamenhof aleyn zikh nisht gehaltn far a groysn poet. Er
zogt befeyresh in der gramatik: 'Ikh breng di dozike lider nor als
bayshpiln vi azoy tsu makhn yidishe ferzn, nisht als literarishe
produktn fun groysn vert'.
6. Dr. Olshvanger, vos iz geven an esperantist un hot gehat perzenlekhn
kontakt mit Zamenhofn, hot mir geshribn in yor l95l: 'Dr. Zamenhof iz
geven der ershter vos hot farfast a genug detalirte gramatik fun yidish,
un hot arayngezets oykh zayne lider in yidish' - befeyresh; zayne eygene
lider.
7. Derekh agev vil ikh do dermanen, az di gramatik iz take geshribn in
rusish, ober a kleyner teyl iz iberzetst gevorn in yidish fun A. Litvin
un gedrukt in zayn vilner zhurnal 'Lebn un visnshaft', l909-l9l0
(hakdome un ortografishe erklerungen; nisht-hoyptvort, bayvort, tsolvort
unazoyvayter). Es iz nisht gedrukt gevorn in gantsn, vayl Litvin hot
gevolt makhn enderungen in tekst un Dr. Zamenhof hot oyf dem nisht
maskim geven (loyt Dr. Olshvanger, gehert fun Zamenhof aleyn)."
N. Ts. Maymun dermont oykh agev az Mr. Adolf Holtshoys vos hot aroysgegebn
dos bukh iz nisht keyn yid.
Oygust 5,l973 hot di Perl gedrukt a zayt fun der esperanto-tsaytung "Heroldo
de esperanto" (fun l junio l973) vu er drukt undzer onfrage:'Cy Zamenhof
verkis jidajn poemojn?"
Di finf lider vos Dr. Ziskind hot geshikt zaynen:
l.
Oyf yeder loshn zingt ir, mayne brider,
Vi betlers nemt ir alts bay fremde layt -
Genug, mayn folk! vu zaynen dayne lider?
Ver oykh a mentsh! Shtey oyf, es iz shoyn tsayt!
2.
Dayn geveyn vet got nit hern,
Blind iz er far dayne laydn;
Zeyen muzstu, zey mit trern,
Oyb du vilst in freydn shnaydn.
3.
Tsien, heyb oyf dayne farshvolene oygn,
Fun dayne kinder un zeyer noyt;
Shvakh un farshvartst un in tsveyen geboygn,
Betlen zey oys zeyer shtikele broyt.
4.
Es tsien zikh shifn - es zingen di layt.
Es shoymen zikh freylekh di veln,
Dos geyen di yidn fun goles bafrayt
An eygenem koymen tsu shteln.
5.
Get (?) farges dayne tsores un gliklekherheyt
Heylt di vundn mit lider un vayn,
Un dertseylt dayne kinder in nakhes un freyd
Vi es iz biter a yosem tsu zayn.
Chana un Yosl Mlotek
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