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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If Ralph is bigoted about anything, he may have a
slight bigotry against conservatism, which in the European tradition (much less
in the American) has been linked to antisemitism. I don't see that Ralph
sees Catholicism and antisemitism as inseperable (as Daniel J. Goldhagen, for
instance, seems to), but he is simply aware of Catholicism's very dodgy history
on the matter. I wasn't aware this was a particularly controversial
matter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>As for Adler, I wonder whether this co-founder of the
Great Books of the Western World was simply expressing his preference for works
from Europe and America over the great Semitic writings, the Bible and the
Quran. Maybe he really did mean anti-Semitism (as opposed to antisemitism, a
form of Jew-hatred), opposition to the cultures found together with the Semitic
languages....</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=willcubbedge@gmail.com href="mailto:willcubbedge@gmail.com">William
A. Cubbedge</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vze3m7md@verizon.net
href="mailto:vze3m7md@verizon.net">Charles R.L. Power</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 30 October 2008 10:46
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Membroj] Mort-al Foot in
Mouth</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Mr. Power,<BR><BR>Yours is a reasonable argument based on the
presentation of evidence, and I have no problem with that. I have a
problem more with what Mr. Dumain did not offer (a basis for his screed or a
logical exposition of his proposition that Catholicism is so closely connected
with Antisemitism as to be inseparable) than what he did offer (which isn't
much more than the same old bunk and moonshine I've been given by most
anti-Catholics in my life.) I tolerate the company of reasoning
people, whether or not they agree with me. I cannot tolorate a bigot, be
he an anti-Catholic bigot, an anti-Semitic bigot, an athiestic bigot, or
elsewise. <BR><BR>And the Pope to whom you refer was St. Pius X, but his
syllybus was not a list of general maxims, rather, it was a list of previosu
condemnations of the underlying anti-religous suppositions that supported acts
of revolutionary regimes in certain European countries (France in particular)
that denied the rights of the Church and the rights of concious of
Catholics. The Syllabus should not be read or interperated outside of
this context as it was by the Protestant barnburners in the United States when
it was published against Catholic participation in democracy.<BR><BR>Yorus
Truly,<BR>Will Cubbedge<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Charles R.L. Power
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:vze3m7md@verizon.net">vze3m7md@verizon.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=2>I'd say that yes, we
tolerate anti-religious rhetoric. Ralph is a very opinionated guy and also
one of the most knowledgeable about intellectual history I've ever known.
Religions are collections of ideas, and ideas can be good or bad. Some of
the ideas the Catholic Church has held through its long history are now
recognized as not completely correct nor even very decent. For example, what
one pope called the Syllabus of Errors is largely a collection of core
beliefs of a tolerant, democratic society. Personally, as an unbeliever born
into the Catholic Church, I have mixed feelings about its history. My
feelings are relatively unmixed about another religion, Islam, and I
wouldn't rule out the idea of a lecture in Esperanto sometime about why I
consider Islam to be a dangerous religion for a tolerant society, though
others would be free to tell me I'm full of it as well. This is the sense in
which I think toleration is good -- tolerating ideas with which we disagree.
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=2><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000000 size=2><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=2>On Thu, Oct 30, 2008
at 9:38 AM, William A. Cubbedge wrote:</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000000 size=2><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>I know enough about
history to make the following two statements with reasonable certitude:
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>1) The rash
generalizations and ad hominem "arguments" you have made are a sure sign
that I am being baited by a bigot. This fallacious tact is also
employed by the Anti-Semites I've run accross as a duckblind for their
ignorance. and, ironically, by you for what I assume to be the same
reason. I will not engage in an argument with a bigot, nor a wall, nor
a cow, nor any other unreasoning thing. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>2) Esperanto was
founded to increase understanding among disperate peoples. You have
brought a sectarian religous debate into a forum for Esperanto, and in so
doing, you have appropriated this little corner of the movement to serve
your selfish pursuit of rectitude. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Perhaps I got the
Washington society all wrong. Perhaps this sort of anti-religious
rhetoric is tolorated, or even encoruaged, by the membership. I am an
Esperanto neophyte, and you have sucsesfully chased me away from the
Washington society. I have no interest in spending my free time in the
company of someone who lacks the self-control to put aside his anti-Catholic
partisanship for the sake of attracting others to Esperanto.
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Will Cubbedge
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>On Thu, Oct 30, 2008
at 1:43 AM, Ralph Dumain < <FONT color=#3333ff><A
href="mailto:rdumain@autodidactproject.org"
target=_blank><U>rdumain@autodidactproject.org</U></A></FONT>> wrote:
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>You quite obviously
know nothing of history, for example of the period in which Adler was
active. The Catholic Church's historic crimes against the Jews (not to
mention others) are well-known, so deal with it. Secondly, it's one
thing to be born into something and make the best of it, but conversion is
entirely another matter. A Jew converting to Catholicism, that is, to
defect to his persecutors, is a turn to authoritarianism and the
right. A conversion to a more conservative and authoritarian
denomination of the same religion might be comparable. For example, a
secular Jew turning orthodox. Or a liberal Catholic joining the
fascist Opus Dei. That Esperanto is the creation of a member of a
persecuted people is no accident, and if you can't be honest about history,
you need to refrain from engaging in major discourse. </FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>On another note,
there have been several critiques of the Great Books program. I can't
put my finger on more than one. I recall only the first I ever read:
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Macdonald, Dwight.
"The Book-of-the-Millennium Club," in <I>Against the American Grain: Essays
on the Effects of Mass Culture </I>(New York: Vintage Books, 1965), pp.
243-261. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>There is a body of
literature on intellectual popularization in the first half of the 20th
century. I don't recall whether this book addresses the Great Books program,
but here's an important reference: </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana
color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Rubin, Joan Shelley.
<I>The Making of Middlebrow Culture </I>. Chapel Hill: University of North
Carolina Press, 1992. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>I do not recall
whether this noted author addresses the Great Books at all:
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Cotkin, George.
"Middle-Ground Pragmatists: The Popularization of Philosophy in American
Culture," <I>Journal of the History of Ideas </I>, vol. 55, no. 2, April
1994, 283-302. </FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>At 10:38 PM
10/29/2008, Will Cubbedge wrote: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Your gutter language
and your association of my Catholic fath with anti-semitism on a public
Esperanto email list does not help the language any more than Adler's dumb
use of the word Esperanto. <FONT color=#3333ff><A
href="mailto:rdumain@autodidactproject.org"
target=_blank></A></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>-- </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>William A. Cubbedge,
J.D. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>301-328-7761
</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3><BR></FONT>
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<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
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<DIV align=left><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=2>Membroj mailing
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clear=all><BR>-- <BR>William A. Cubbedge,
J.D.<BR>301-328-7761<BR><BR>***************************************************************************************************<BR>The
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